American Murderer is the feature film debut of writer and director Matthew Gentile. We posted our review of the film and then had a chance to speak with Gentile about the film and his response to the criticism.
Hello, Matthew. Thanks for joining me. It’s great to have this opportunity and I appreciate you reaching out as you did after you read the review.
Matthew Gentile: Thanks for having me. Yes, I thought you did a really good job with your review. I think you put a lot of thought into it. This is my first feature and I’m very proud of it. But when you have the criticism and critiques, like yours, it helps, you know, because you acknowledged what works but also what could be better. So, I appreciate you and what you do.
Thanks. I’m really looking forward to this conversation, and I gotta start by saying that with your first feature you took on a true story. That itself must have been a challenge. What was that balance like, between keeping it authentic while still having it be entertaining?
MG: Well, this story is embedded in my DNA (laughs). I first learned who Jason Derek Brown was when I was fourteen. I used to go in the fbi.gov website to peruse the headshots to see if I could, you know, help find them. I was a kid. But Jason’s face stuck out immediately. There he was, in the Top 10. You had Osama Bin Laden and Whitey Bulger, you know, these menacing sophisticated criminals, and then this surfer dude from Southern California.
And with that, I have to bring up my teacher at AFI, Peter Markham, who would ask us, what draws you to material, and you know, for a lot of people, I think it’s a character. So this image of a surfer dude with spiky hair and green eyes against a blue wall in a red hoodie … it’s a great image. So we recreate it in the film and it looks exactly like the wanted poster and it brings me right image back to fourteen. There’s just something about it. And, you know, I love those kinds of films about anti-heroes and moral gray area. The likable thing never got me, you know? I really like things like Dog Day Afternoon, which led to me discovering (Francis Ford) Coppola and (Martin) Scorsese and (Brian) De Palma and all these filmmakers who explore these areas. And with Brown, that’s where I was. I became transfixed by how this guy was able to mean so many different things to so many different people, even loved by some, whether it was his sister, his ex-girlfriend. Either way, you also had the cop, the FBI agent (Ryan Phillippe), they all had a different perception of him. And so I thought this could be an interesting movie.
And to get back to your question, I initially started to write the screenplay very close to the facts. I tried to stay loyal to how things happened and I really didn’t go outside Jason’s point of view. And the concept of the design was, for the first half of the movie, he’s a lovable idiot. You know he’s bad but you know, you might kind of like him. You’re intrigued by him. Even charmed, but then you see him do the unthinkable. Then, you’re stuck with them.
That concept actually never changed. It was always in there. But after feedback and the shape of the screenplay evolved into what it became, all of these different perspectives. And then it became more of an ensemble film, all these different people and it was as much about him as it was the people who knew him and loved him. And the people he left behind and wronged and we’re stuck holding the bag so to speak. And that was fun, making Jason as despicable as possible, which was very freeing as a writer and a director.
So you weren’t trying to be completely factual.
MG: You know, it’s one of those all-of-it’s-true and none-of-it’s-real-things, right? Where, you know, yes, I researched the script for six months before I even wrote a word. I did interviews, though I didn’t actually meet any people in the family, specifically of Jason Derek Brown. Most of the people who are portrayed in the film are real, but there are a couple of composite characters who are there as well. But I won’t say who. So I’ve got all this information and as a storyteller I decide to make a movie that just tells that story. So of course, if ten other directors had the story, it’d be ten different movies. For me, I was trying to pursue emotional truth. That was what I really wanted to explore. What did it mean to be these people? You know, what did it mean to be Jason’s sister, to find out your brother did these horrible things? That’s really where I was looking to go, to be in the drama, to try to shine a light on who this man was.
For me, I think that’s where you succeeded, especially with the sister. I found that angle to be the most compelling. And as you said, you have to make it your own, but I’m wondering what the feedback was, if any, from family members, or from anyone who knew him.
MG: I haven’t got a ton yet, though someone reached out to me the other day who said he knew Jason after he went on the run in Texas. And Jason’s sister thanked me for her portrayal, though she said Jason was different for her than how he was portrayed. But she still enjoyed the film. Of course I would trust her to know more about her brother than me, but it’s a tricky balance. I’m learning that now, especially as my next script is also based on a true story, and I’m asking myself how true do I need to be? How much freedom do I have to invent?
I have to jump in here and just say that Shantel VanSanten, playing Jason’s sister, is truly great as well as Paul Schneider as Jason’s brother.
MG: Yeah, Shantel is great and you know, Paul is just the best. He actually started out as a film editor and got into acting by accident, but he’s just so good. I saw him in that role (as Jason’s brother) from the very beginning, and I was told he was going to be hard to get because it was a very small part, but my casting director Patricia DiCerto, she made it happen.
So then we have to talk about the golf course scene.
MG: Right, the golf course scene. That’s a consistent favorite of a lot of people and I get asked about it a lot. Paul did a great job there. But it’s interesting because that could’ve been a forgettable role, Jason’s brother, but I think he did it right. That scene is one of my favorites.
One of my criticisms was that I wanted more from the supporting cast. And I know as a filmmaker you’ve got limitations that you’re bound to, but for example Ryan Phillippe as the FBI agent, I’d written how his character felt underdeveloped. We’re in this three-prong story but every time I got invested in the investigation we got snapped out of it. So what was the juggling act like for you in deciding the screen time for each character?
MG: Good question. And you know, in film, you think ideas are going to work and then you look at it and think, I would have done that differently. But yes, it was a pretty tight script and while there was room for improv–some of the best lines came from Phillippe–certainly, things evolved in editing; some stuff we didn’t plan for and other things changed, but I understand your criticism for sure, and I get it, I do wish I had more time for a lot of things, that maybe it could have been two hours, you know. But at the same time, Ryan’s character really functioned as a way in for the audience. He’s kind of taking you from place to place, right? He’s leading the manhunt, this cat and mouse game.
Right. That’s good. I just wish I could have had more time with him (laughs).
MG: (Laughing) All right, I know, I know. But look, Michael Mann had three weeks to shoot his armored truck scene. He shot a two hour and fifty minute movie. I think I definitely could have used more time. However, I would say that I don’t have the skills yet to fill a movie with the length of Heat.
That’s very humble of you. And while I didn’t have the space in my review to explain, I think it is because I did become invested in these supporting characters, especially Ryan, so I was just thinking, man, I don’t want to cut away.
MG: Yeah, I understand. But I think Ryan and Adina both really elevated what was there and yes, you know I do wish I would have asked for more time with them and their characters, but I think Ryan gives a very subtle performance and I actually don’t think he gets enough credit for that. And Idina, she brings out a lot of the emotion.
Absolutely. You have a great cast, and we haven’t even mentioned Tom Pelphrey yet. I mean, this is his film. And I have to say, I didn’t go into this well informed. I didn’t look up who the real Jason Derek Brown is or what he’d done, so when I started watching, I was thinking, what is going on? Who is this guy? What is Pelphrey doing?
MG: Well, I’m going to reference something else, what I think is one of the best performances of all time … that of Eric Roberts in Star 80, an amazing film. That performance actually kind of told me I could do this film. Like, when I saw that film at the New Beverly Cinema, which is (Quentin)Tarantino‘s theater in West Hollywood, and I had known of (director) Bob Fosse but I didn’t know about this film and then it was Eric Roberts … this performance, it just lit up the theater. You walk out of that movie sick to your stomach. It’s tragic.
Agreed. Easily the best of his career.
MG: But back to Tom Pelphrey. We had lists of actors who have certain value and Tom wasn’t really on anyone’s radar until Ozark came out, right? We’re watching his arc back in what, April 2020? We’re trying to cast the film, and we think, this is the guy. It was just so clear, he had all the right traits and the physicality; charming and like a lost puppy but you know, I wanted it play out like a monster movie. Everyone who comes into contact with him is in danger. But we were sure he wouldn’t go for it. We made an offer to his agents and then he and I did a ZOOM meeting for like three hours and his big question was, how are you trying to tell this story? He liked the script, a lot of interpretation, but I said I didn’t want to do a caricature and I didn’t want to just make him a sociopath, even though he is one; I wanted to show his humanity. Tom agreed.
So what was his process? How did you get that performance out of him?
MG: Tom just really had it down, and when you have someone like him you can thank your lucky stars and I won’t take credit for anything except my only job as I saw it. My job is creating a space. That’s what I tried to do you know, give him the space, the sandbox so that he could just go and be really unhinged because I needed an actor who could do that for that role and not everyone’s like that, right? But Tom is. He was just there a man. I mean, the first thing we shot was the party scene. I saw that, I was like, all right, we’re good.
That’s a great moment.
MG: And it’s an important one because that’s your buy-in, right? The viewer is looking at that and they have to decide: love this guy or hate him.
I get that. And for me, I think it was the discovery. I’m like, what am I’m dealing with? He’s like Leonardo DiCaprio in The Wolf of Wall Street. And then there’s this slow steady breakdown from where you see him at the beginning and where you see him at the end. It’s a really well-constructed, well-executed character study.
MG: Thanks.
And it’s that final imagery, him departing that room; I watched again and again because I was thinking, okay, I see what you’re doing here. Jason’s leaving us behind, he’s leaving us stuck, where we are. He’s carrying all this with him and then he’s just gone. It’s why I really wanted to talk with you, that process in filming that sequence.
MG: Yeah. Absolutely. Jason really did leave that Cadillac in Portland, Oregon in January, 2005. So I had this image of him at the parking lot going off to god-knows-where. And it wasn’t to suggest some creepiness, like oh, he’s among us or anything. But I like ambiguous endings, and with Jason, it is an unsolved mystery. The bad guy didn’t get caught and some people watching get really pissed off about that, you know; it’s not satisfying. Crime did pay.
Sure. I see that.
MG: But either way, the shot. I knew there had to be snow because it was an icy exterior and you see him going into the coldness and disappearing. I actually just wanted him to walk while I rolled the credits. So we did that walk, me and cinematographer Kalilah Robinson like 7,000 times. She’s amazing. But every time we did it, we tried to disappear behind that slit in the window. We couldn’t do it. But Tom Pelphrey? He does it once. First take.
It’s chilling.
MG: Right? And we had snow machines that day, though they looked awful, so I’m thinking the shot’s gonna be no good, but then suddenly, we have real snow for like forty minutes. So we’re like, let’s go. We set up, Tom walks out, camera dollies in. The walk is great. Real snow is falling. And Tom gets it, perfectly. Take one. It was the only time I did one take of anything. So yeah, it was both planned and a little spontaneous. Thank the movie gods.
I also love ambiguity in film. But I want to bounce back to what you said about crime paying. I didn’t get a sense that Jason won in all this. He got away with the crime, yes, but he lost everything, his family, his friends, his loves.
MG: No, I agree with you hundred percent. I think even though he does, quote, get away it. Yeah, he loses far more, which is personified with the sister. I think that one loss is the real kicker.
It’s devastating. Right back to Shantel VanSanten, but I think we need to look for an ending here, and I typically do that by explaining how our website, thatmomentin.com came about, our belief that every movie has one great moment. And you’ve already mentioned a couple of films that influenced you, but is there a movie moment that you hold as a favorite or consider impactful?
MG: Good question. And I think there’s a fairly obvious one, that cut in Lawrence of Arabia, where it goes from the match to the desert. I think that is what cinema is about. And I think the final shot of Seven Samurai … yeah. Great moment.
Some good choices.
MG: But I want to add one more, a film I just saw the other night for the first time. It’s from 1984, director’s name is Amir Naderi. It’s Iranian, about a boy who is impoverished and lives in a port city and sells water; shines shoes. It’s beautifully shot. But there is one sequence that just lit me up, where these boys chase trains and they’re all racing each other to get a piece of ice on a block that is surrounded by fire and the camera just slows down and watches them. These boys just grab this ice and there’s fire, and the sound is like a symphony – there’s actually no music, it’s just sound design. And it’s just so beautiful. I was like crying and I don’t know why, you know, but I just love moments like that. Human drama.
That’s going on my list.
MG: If you can find it, it’s definitely worth it.
Then I guess that’s it. I can’t thank you enough for talking with me. It’s always great getting closer to how movies are made.
MG: This was a really a fun conversation. It was nice to really get out and talk film with you, so thank you, David. Hopefully, people will read this conversation and be like, maybe directors and critics should talk more.